SPQR Blues readers: I have a question for you...

[spqrblues]

Was Lolla a Woman in a Refrigerator?

This is the sort of thing that worries me when I haven't had enough sleep.

Those who have no idea what the WiR discussion is about might find it interesting. I only learned the term recently, though of course the phenomenon itself is all too familiar. The "use of the death or injury of a female comic book character as [no more than] a plot device in a story starring a male comic book character." Generally in reference to superhero comics. Felix does have a cape (BearMan?).

Those who don't know who Lolla is are instructed to read Chapter 2! Get ye to it! It's part of a balanced diet.

Comments

[avram]

"Women in Refrigerators" is one of those topics where the more I read about it, the less I understand it.

When I first read Gail Simone's first essay on it, I thought I knew what she was talking about -- female characters being casually killed off (or otherwise disposed of, like by de-powering) as a cheap plot gimmick. But as more people contributed to that big long list, the usual fannish list-making dynamic came into play, with newcomers' desire to contribute a new list item overwhelming their understanding of the list criteria. Now it's just a list of every female character who's had something bad happen to her.

For example, there are two character there whose husbands have been killed -- isn't that the opposite of being a Woman in a Refrigerator? Zatanna's on there with "powers severely limited" as the reason, referring to the first issue of her part of Grant Morrison's Seven Soldiers series, even though her powers were restored in the ending, and she was never de-protagonized.

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

I was thinking of it as being more sharply defined: "Hero knows woman. She doesn't do much of anything but accessorise him. She is killed or injured. He suffers and grows from his experience of this. If he needs more development later, we'll get him another woman."

I can see how the list could so easily become "Women are being thumped around in this story, and this one, and over here," with no consideration of the context. Perhaps that is where (whence?) my, well, paranoia derives--that any instance of a female character being killed off and the hero suffering from it is in danger as being tagged as unacceptable.

Woman in Fridge?

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, I'll put my foot in the beartrap. I was not aware of the 'abuse of women as a plot ploy' controversy, yet I have been guilty of it. I was a third of the way through my first novel when I decided the reader needed more reason to hate the bad guys. I decided to kill off a minor, but likeable minor character. There were five reasonable candidates, two female, three male. One of the female characters I really liked, she had a spunky blue-collar attitude, a no nonsense kinda working girl. I decided to kill her BECAUSE I liked her best of the available victims. Yes, she died right there in the middle of the street, a hard, nasty death. As a result, the story absolutely took off from that moment. Many cool things happened as a result. If I had killed off the cute little dolly instead, nobody would have cared. The available guys... one would have created problems with the story and another wasn't sufficiently endowed significant. I killed off the woman because I felt her death would have the strongest effect on the reader. I was right... but I still missed her through the next two stories. Killing off redshirts is easy, killing off characters with names and personalities is hard. Guess it should be. I hope God feels the same way. DRW.

Re: Woman in Fridge?

[(Anonymous)]

Hmm, that didn't read right. I meant the second guy wasn't sufficiently significant to the plot. In all probability the fellow was very well endowed, but that was beside the point... story wise. I am sure his close friends would see things differently. DRW.

Re: Woman in Fridge?

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

Well... I think it's clear, in your story, that you put more thought into that incident than, "the hero needs a life-altering event!" All sorts of factors contribute to the event, and all sorts of things result from it. I like to think I do keep in mind how everything fits into the story as a whole--but I also tend to worry about how things are perceived.

Oh, heck, I'll just go on a rampage in chapter 3, fill the streets with red-tunics. (It's possible a rampage has already been planned.)

And I really shouldn't go near a discussion of significantly endowed characters, not after introducing a new character in a skimpy little tunic...

[ebifugue.livejournal.com]

In the case of Lolla, I don't think she meets the criteria of "casually killed". In WiR, usually the hero and the audience are made to either witness the death or the gruesome discovery. You did an "off-screen" death, which lends more realism, and less cheap plot trick.

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about "on screen" versus "off screen" portrayals of violence. Life is likely to be nasty and short (brutal too) for a lot of characters, what with this being ancient Rome and there being a volcano and other ancient pitfalls all around them, and for some future incident it might make sense for the event to occur on screen. There's a line between realistic and too-graphic, but I'm not always sure where it is. I'll be glad to have it pointed out if anything has a whiff of cheap plot trick....

[ebifugue.livejournal.com]

Then trust me, we as your loyal readers will probably be all to happy to point it out. I liked Lolla, and I liked her death too, from the perspective of a fellow writer.

[alex-smollett.livejournal.com]

De-lurking here...

This issue of off- vs. on-screen ties in with something else I've been thinking about lately, namely the pacing of webcomics as opposed to comic magazines or albums. Since the readers get the story in small chunks and have time to digest every frame I think the way you did it with the death of Lolla was excellent. If I'd seen Lolla die first then I'd have had plenty of time to get over the initial shock and feeling of loss before we'd have seen Felix' reaction. But now both I and Felix got the news at the same time so we both felt (sort of) the same thing at the same time, which brought me closer to Felix. It wasn't cheap, it was top quality craftsmanship.

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

Thank you for delurking to comment--and thanks not just because your comment was so nice.

Webcomics definitely bring up new issues (or opportunities) in the pacing of storytelling. A serialised, syndicated newspaper comic strip isn't quite the same. Webcomickers (hmm, does that word work?) might manage a strict daily schedule, might have to take a few days' break now and then (sorry about that), but almost always have an archive of strips readily available, so readers also get a chance to move along at their own pace. ...Actually, I don't have any clear thoughts right now about how the pacing affects the way one tells a story (for some unknown reason I'm trying to catch up with comments after being woken up way too early... why am I not trying to get back to sleep?), but I'm going to think about that one some more.

[kyleen66.livejournal.com]

Killing off a character that is important to another character is a great way to create angst. Some characters are just created to die for the personal development of the hero.

It seems that these folks that are talking about it mostly complain it happens to more women than men in comics. Well, gee wiz, could it be because the MAJORITY of comics have a male hero? If they are going to complain about anything, it ought to be about the fact that there are so VERY FEW comics that have a female hero as the main character. And the ones that do have female leads tend to lean heavily on being eye candy (as your example of Supergirl... ::shudder::).

Why is this? That's not hard to figure out. It's NOT a patriarchal sub agenda. It's that MOST COMIC BUYERS AND READERS ARE MALE!

That's not a made up thing. As you know, I spend a LOT of years working in a comic book store. Probably 5% of the people that were on the "pull" list, that is members of the comic club that had their comics set aside for them weekly, were female.

So really this phenomenon is market driven. If there were more female readers, you can bet you that the comic book publishers would be looking for a way to cash in on it. This is the United States and money is the motivator.

So, here's the thing. WHO are you going to market to if you want to sell comics? Males. Bad thing, good thing... Whatever. It's just the reality of the situation.

That being established, folks are going to create comics that a male would identify and/or enjoy reading.

Since I see this whole, "But you are just killing off and being mean to the girls in comics" as totally crap (What about poor Uncle Ben? Doesn't he count for having caused poor Spidy innumerable years of angst?) I cannot see WHY creating and killing of Lolla is a bad thing. It was good for the story. It gave Felix reason to ultimately hate Domitian. It also showed Felix as being loving, and caring, and having had a family once.

I know this isn't the first time you've questioned yourself on whether or not SPQR Blues is "feminist" enough, or if you have a responsibility to be feminist.

My opinion is that a writer/artists first job is to tell a good story, not to serve any agenda.

Make sense?

[b2creative.livejournal.com]

It seems that these folks that are talking about it mostly complain it happens to more women than men in comics.

And for that matter, there were also two male characters killed off in that little "incident", so I don't think it applies, personally.

If you put too much thought into this, you'll never kill off any female characters!

Angst! I must have angst!

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

Well, angst I can do.

If anyone asks, I'll say I was just following a reader request. I had no choice! :)

Yes, I do overthink, and overthink, and overthink...

Male on Male Reading-Action

[perilousknits.livejournal.com]

"Why is this? That's not hard to figure out. It's NOT a patriarchal sub agenda. It's that MOST COMIC BUYERS AND READERS ARE MALE!"

I feel this is a chicken and the egg argument. Are most heros male because the readership is male or is the readership male because the heros are overwhelmingly male? Is the product driven by the market or does the product dictate the market? Don't you think that if there were more comics featuring female protagonists, that more girls and women would buy comics? Then we would have Man-in-Refrigerator to argue about.

[amedia.livejournal.com]

I've heard of the motif, though not the WiR moniker. I agree with your desire to sharpen the definition. To me it becomes objectionable when there's a scarcity of interesting, well-developed female characters, so the only, or practically only, woman is the disposable one. E.g. Chris' wife in Mag 7, glimpsed only in flashbacks, whose death caused him tremendous angst in a universe where the ratio of men to women was so high that I can't imagine how the West was populated, let alone won.

But Lolla? When one interesting woman out of a whole cast of interesting women happens to die... that doesn't seem like WiR to me. More like REAL LIFE!

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

Let us revisit this at the end of Chapter 3. Not that I'm hinting at anything, or anything.

Ah, yes. "The beautiful loved one glimpsed only in flashbacks" motif can be irksome. I like Monk, but I'm of two minds about one of its central plot points: the death of his wife is the life-altering event that sent the character further into the debilitating condition that the entire show spins around. I do feel an undercurrent of irritation whenever the wife appears to smile wispily at him. But I also think the show is saved by giving the main character a strong, quirky female sidekick who is not and will not want to be his love interest.

Now I will stare at your icon for a while.

Two words: Tahsa Yarr

[passiveangel.livejournal.com]

Although I'm not sure how to spell her name.

Hey wait, isn't the WiR like the sacrificial buddy (who quite often happens to be black) in action movies?

Okay, so, um, you're writing a story where the main character is a guy. He's straight, so his love interest is unavoidably female. Would you be having these questions if Felix was more in the old Greek fashion and his pretty-boy love was killed off? And besides, he didn't have a strong enough connection to Mus yet (and we like him entirely too much) to use him as the angst-driver. ;-P

You're writing a good story. Hands down. Next time create a female character and kill off her boyfriend. It'll all balance out in the end.

Oh, btw, all of my icons dissect women and objectify their body parts without appreciating them as a whole person. And many of the original paintings are derivatives of the male gaze. ;-)

[kaseido.livejournal.com]

I think you've got consensus! :-)

Still, just to dogpile on - IMO, Lolla was the anti-WiR. I think the WiR has three elements: it's an inciting incident, it's sloppily conceived and written, and it demonstrates (arguably) unconscious sexism. You're *so* clear on all three counts.

For that matter, I'm not sure how I'd rate the original WiR: I *liked* Kyle's girlfriend, and her death did matter to the story. Kyle was very much on the Campbell Hero's Journey, which meant that he would have to leave her and his ordinary life behind no matter what. We're more apt to identify positively with him if he leaves after a tragedy (like Luke in Star Wars after the death of his aunt and uncle, both arguably WiRs) than if he comes home one day, says "Honey, I got this cool ring and the JLA wants me - later, babe!")

Marz also wrote an arc of Witchblade in which Sara is driven by the shooting of her cute, sweet male cop-partner: same thing or different? I'm not sure.

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

This is how tired I was when I first read your comment: I was trying to figure out what soup has to do with a hero's journey. Thank goodness I didn't write a reply right then.

It interesting to hear another persepctive on the original WiR. I suppose the shocking nature of it--stuffed in a fridge!--was bound to get people talking about whether or not it was gratuitous as well.

On the other hand, I like the idea of the hero whose journey can be there and back again--say, Sam returning to Rosie--more than "Having lost everything, I set forth to find destiny." Both are valid stories, but--could it be a factor of getting older, being at a different stage of my own life?--I identify more with a hero who has an overwhelmingly good reason to leave what is dear to him behind him (family, friends, home, hearth, country) than with the hero who has nothing behind him but loss. It had better be a darned good reason for leaving them alone, but somehow it feels more poignant and more significant to me. Yah, "later, babe" probably wouldn't cut it :)

I hope that makes sense in context. I'm still not sure I'm fully awake.

[kaseido.livejournal.com]

*laughs*

Shh! Now I'll never be able to keep my Chicken & Stars down on the farm! *g*

You raised a good point - I wonder if the "leaving hearth & home behind" version is one with more mature appeal. Probably not unrelated to why I loved the Iliad at 13 but was mildly bored by the Odyssey....

[cyanocorax.livejournal.com]

I love the critical analysis. Just love it. And how will it influence the author's work, still in progress? Perhaps not at all; presumably the whole narrative arc is planned already. But the changed relationship between authors and audiences in this age of blogging has been a subject of recent musing (at least in one author's blog, whose readers pointed her to this piece in Salon.) Apologies for stilted prose. I'm reading The Dante Club this morning. BTW, klio I sent you email at livejournal. Let me know if you don't get it.

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

Much of the narrative arc is planned (probably moreso than is healthy, but to explain more would be... telling). But I think it's a good thing in general to for an author to have the stamina to hear how an audience is responding, just as a long-ago storyteller could watch the faces of her listeners around the hearthfire and expand and play on those elements, already in the story, that caught the listeners' attention or seemed most important to them at that time. The story, though, would still be itself, not changed entirely in an attempt to give everybody what they want (other than giving everybody a good story). Uhm... okay, this is stilted because it's 5 in the morning and I should still be asleep... I think I'll, hmm, go read those links you pointed out....

[seian.livejournal.com]

Well, if Lolla was the only one to die, I'd be concerned, but there was at least three people who went in that little horror. Lolla just happened to be the one Felix slept with, so a little more focus on, to be blunt. ;) Seems natural. Now if you got into killing off Felix's lovers regularly, I'd question if there was something like the Gwen Stacy Syndrome the wiki mentions.

[meritahut.livejournal.com]

Awww... that icon... I am done in by sweetness.

Historical fact is going to get to at least one of Felix's lovers eventually. I apologise in advance.

"Historical fact ..."

[(Anonymous)]

Those murderous facts strike again. Darn it.
-LRDC Karen